I noticed in the Gallery that N48PW has a swept vertical stab. (and nice black paint accents)
Looks a bit like the Derringer. Any comment?
Flight characteristics? Inquireing minds and all that...
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| Swept vertical Stab http://t18.net/thorpforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6884 |
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| Author: | SHIPCHIEF [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Swept vertical Stab |
I noticed in the Gallery that N48PW has a swept vertical stab. (and nice black paint accents) Looks a bit like the Derringer. Any comment? Flight characteristics? Inquireing minds and all that...
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| Author: | leewwalton [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
N48PW, otherwise known as "Kong" is a highly modified T-18 that now resides in Canada. Check out the "articles" section of the main site or you can search the EAA archives for "Kong" (sometime in 1979). Guys either like the airplane or hate it, I'm in the "like" group but will say "Kong" takes "lead sled" to whole new level. As far as the tail goes, as much as I like it there is a pretty significant flaw in that the rudder does not extend below the stab (a no-no for spin recovery). I'm not sure if Paul White had the Derringer in mind when he changed the tail or not. I think with all of the other changes he made to the airplane, he just wanted to make sure everyone knew it was "special", and it is! |
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| Author: | dan [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Gotta flight in Kong one year at a flyin at PTV, It is as it was named, it was heavy,it was beautiful and let me tell ya, ole Kong was one fast motor scooter. 245 mph was a cakewalk for Kong, I was impressed by this rig. It will go down in history as being one T 18 that had the ability to show that beautifully swept tail to all of those who tried to get a look at the front end in the air......Dan |
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| Author: | SHIPCHIEF [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
What did he do to allow the Vne to be increased to 245 MPH? I realize that Sport Air Racers exceed Vne with RV's, Mustangs, Tailwinds etc. This is a grey zone. If a safe and sure method were established like John Thorps review program that brought Vne up from 180 to 210, then T/S-18 would compare to Mustang II and RV-7, instead of RV-6 ?? I've been reading the NLs and some amazing work has been done to enhance the safety and strength of the T-18. I have not found a single document that collates these mods, nor critiques them. Maybe that's for our generation. |
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| Author: | leewwalton [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Kong was a highly modified T-18, he did his own flight test and tested the airplane up to 240mph, check out the Sport Aviation article. The changes he made were done without the consent of John Thorp. On another note, just because the VNE of the RV-7 and the MMII are higher than the T-18 does not mean they are faster. The T-18 is just as fast as any RV-7 or RV-6 out there with comparable power. |
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| Author: | Rich Brazell [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
We had a saying during Navy training...train until you PUKE ! It's an experimental A/C...make as many changes as you dare !  I had a saying that I passed on to ALL my students, regardless if it was in a C-150 or DC-9..."In Aviation you can do ANYTHING ONCE (rolls, loops,low passes over your girl friends house)...including exceeding the published Vne !"  Standard disclaimler applies.RB |
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| Author: | dan [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Lee, you are spot on, Kong was modified,and modified to the point to where it was heavier than most would think, the gross on Kong was considerably heavier than numbers we are used to looking at. I had that number but it has escaped me so I don't want to give any misinformation. The Kong still is and probably always will be legendary, but then again I believe that terminology will follow the Thorp in general right on down through the history of Aviation. Good to be a part of that History,ain't it. Dan |
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| Author: | Rich Brazell [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Wasn't KONG around 1900 lbs MTOW ? I smell Mexican food next year at KVIS ! Ummmm Mexican food ! Homer leaving now ! RB |
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| Author: | leewwalton [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:36 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab | ||
Thanks Dan, would you believe empty weight of 1120 and gross of 1900? and that was in it's original form, I remember looking at it at Oshkosh circa 1984 or so and it had considerably more avionics than it did at 1120. If I remember correct, it had a KNS80, KX155, KY96 and a Stormscope, among other things that have no place in a Thorp. That would explain why it stalled at 82 mph!! Regardless of that I'd still love to get my hands on that airplane!! Here's the original article.
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| Author: | SHIPCHIEF [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Lee; I simply meant that supurb examples can exceed the Vne in level flight. One of the downloaded articles (thanks for that service) I read stated John Thorp's test program included high speed testing beyond the now established Vne of 210, I forget exactly, 10% safety factor...231? with no indication of impending flutter or any other problem in the Horizontal tail. The stated limit was attributed to a lack of instrumentation on the rudder and ailerons, which would be required to proof the remainder of the airframe. I'm only making the observation that the T-18 might be even better than is currently believed, and some light but effective improvements recorded over the years (but never collated) might be helpful if analyzed and discussed. A review of Kong (get your hands on indeed!) checking the builders notes, redlines (changes) on the original plans, interview the Paul White, builder etc. would be a very interesting engineering excersize. |
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| Author: | dan [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Yep, it had a navy blue paint scheme and some other multi colors, that's it!! that's the KONG!!!! And those numbers sure ring a bell!!! I would sure like to go round the patch in that one again!! I tried to copy the gear leg covers and got them as close as I could. I had the pics on my desktop and the hard drive decided to scrap itself so I lost my pics of the Kong and of that flyin, I was sweatin in the garage on 575DG when this flyin rolled around and really needed the break and the inspiration boy them were the days. Thankyou very much for the Article, I'm going to print it and take it to the hanger for reading material. I agree, if I could only get my mits on that one well I would.".........,,..Dan |
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| Author: | leewwalton [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Swept vertical Stab |
Scott, I see what you mean, it's certainly an interesting topic. Here's my take ... we all trust in John Thorp's engineering skill, if not we wouldn't be flying his design(s). Due to the early history of the aircraft and the extent and expense John Thorp went to arrive at the number we all use for VNE it's safer to stick with what he arrived at as the safe limit. That being said JT was probably being a bit conservative with that number but considering the position he was in at the time I cannot blame him for wavering on the safe side .. that's how I like it too! Very rarely (I cannot say never) do I feel suppressed by the 210 VNE, it's plenty fast. I see what you're saying, if someone really wanted to go the expense of a new test program they very may likely arrive at a higher number than 210 but I'm not sure who that guy is. Historically this has been a taboo subject. |
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