Thorp Air Command - T18.net

I apologize in advance for these very basic questions, but I couldn't track down answers here or at the Eklund or CSA sites. I would like a trigear with the wide fuselage and the Sunderland airfoil and folding wing.
1) How does a T-18CW differ from an S-18?
2) If I find a flying aircraft or a project (T-18CW or S-18) with conventional gear, how hard is it to convert to a trigear (add the nosegear and move the mains)? Would I go to CSA for these parts? Are there other sources? Are there any T-18 trigear aircraft out there, or are they all S-18s?
3) From the web sites, it looks like the CSA skins come marked for the rivet holes, the Eklund skins, ribs, etc come with the rivet holes drilled (matched hole construction). The CSA kits have the machined and welded parts, it looks like the Eklund packages are just the parts that are formed from sheets (ribs, skins). Have I got that right? Any other differences of note?
4) The "About the T-18" page here at T18.net (http://thorp18.com/about.asp) says the T-18 plans were taken off the market when John Thorp retired. But these plans are available now through Eklund engineering, right?
5) The spec pages indicate the S-18 is 5" longer than the T-18. Where is this extra length?
6) Is it possible to get a matched hole fuselage kit? The Eklund site doesn't indicate they offer fuselage parts.
7) Once I buy the plans and "construction articles" from Eklund and I have my subscription to the Thorp Mutual Aid Society newsletters, will I have all the information I'd need to build a T-18CW trigear version from scratch or is there some other information I'd need?

Again, sorry for the basic questions, but the whole T-18/S-18 CSA/Eklund relationship is a bit confusing to this newcomer. Comments/links/sarcastic comments are welcome and expected.

Mark W.

Answers ..
1.) besides a rebranding of the drawings and a few obsolete drawings excluded the S-18 and the T-18CW are synonymous. In the completed state they are the same airplane.
2.) CSA sells the tri-gear conversion kits, they can be applied to either the T-18 or the wide body, for all practical purposes the two airplanes are the same.
3.) Eklund only sells the empennage and wing kits, CSA sells the entire airplane. Remember that laying up a T-18 requires a flat surface and some measuring skills. Buying premade skins seems silly to me, John Thorp designed the airplane to be built by a novice who knew math and knew how to use a ruler.
4.) yes Richard Eklund put the T-18 plans back on the market a few years after John Thorp passed away.
5.) the extra 5 inches is aft of the cabin area, this was done to maintain the same fuselage platform while widening the fuselage. As a side note this may not have been completely nessessary, I know of one guy who accidentally built his airplane a few inches too short, he has no problems outrunning me at times.
6.) CSA sells fuselage kits, but as I mentioned the T-18 was designed for a guy who could read, measure and cut ... I find building from a roll of aluminum is a lot of fun!
7.) my impression is that CSA is the one and only source for the tri-gear conversion kit. But I have to implore you and ask why? The T-18 is such a beautiful and perfectly honest flying tail dragger, why anyone would move the third wheel to the front is beyond me. I get the impresssion that the general aviation community has blackballed taildraggers for some reason, go fly a standard T-18!, you see it's a perfect airplane with the wheel in the back!


The CSA - Eklund thing may seem confusing but it's really not so. Eklund owns the rights to the T-18, basically a continuation of John Thorps legacy, CSA is the parts supplier, mostly S-18 kits but also T-18 parts if they intersect, which is about 90%+ of the parts.

_________________
Lee Walton
Houston, TX
N51863,N118LW
KEFD

Lee,
I'll stay out of the taildragger/nosewheel debate, as I know a minefield (covered by a V-shaped ambush) when I see one! I'd like to fly in a T-18 TD someday, and it might turn out to be the only way to get dual T-18 time while I build/modify/search for a finished trigear.

Mark W.

Dear Mark,

Didn't know you are in Dayton....I used to live near Yellow Springs on our family farm.

I am typing this on an iPad in Thailand and I do not know if you've ever tried to do much email on the screen keyboard on an iPad, but if you have you know the editing capabilities once you make an error are limited.

Richard Eklund does NOT offer anything other than plans...and a few misc. Items. He does have a large barn that contains all the tooling originally developed to build a T-18. Back in the late 60's and early 70's I went to Burbank, CA where John Thorp had his shop and made most of my sheet metal parts.

I think there are 5 or 6 Archer Tri gears.

The best Tri gear conversion was an early T-18 that had tricycle retractable gear. I saw it a couple times and it was simply wonderful. Unfortunately the owner flew it into the side of a mountain while participating in a futile search and rescue mission. I visited John Thorp a number of times and he had a signed picture of that plane in his living room. I always wished
that John would have created the plans for the Tri gear retractable version....but he never did.

However, the tail wheel version is a a true delight to fly. After about 5 solo hours you will be very confident and at ease in normal landings and a few more hours and cross winds and gusty conditions will present no problem.


Another thing to consider, if you ever have to make an off airport landing you are safer in a tail wheel plane.

Thanks for the kind words on my drop tank option. Before I came to Thailand on vacation, I shipped a pair to Australia.

If you go to Sun an Fun, there is suppose to be a Tri gear from Tennessee there...I also sold him drop tanks, but he does not yet have them installed.

Good luck to you.

As an aside, how long do you think the current coach will last at OSU?

Tom Hunter

Bob, According to the answers above and other info on this site (see http://thorpaircommand.com/index.php?page=thorp_compare ), the T-18C and the S-18 both have folding wings, and they are the same width when folded.

However, since the center section is so wide I'm not sure what the advantage to a flding wing T-18 would be.

Is the stall strip standard in the plans or is this an addon?

Bob

Bob Hassel
Santa Fe, NM[/quote]


Bob, The FW is 2' inner wing and a 6' foot outer. Where John designed the original T18 4' in & 4' out (to use a 4x8 sheet of aluminum). Four bolts and you can drop the entire wing with controls out of the T18 fuselage for easy transport.

The stall strip was added to the leading edge of some T18's to give a little more buffet before a stall. The Lu Sunderland airfoil is a little more forgiving. Both will work properly if the leading edge radius is constructed per the drawings.

Bob MO

Guys,
The c wing is identical on the t-18 and s-18. The only minute delta being the trim of the wing skin at the fuselage. To all newbies we all need to remember that the s-18 is just a t-18cw for all practucal purposes they are the same airplane.

_________________
Lee Walton
Houston, TX
N51863,N118LW
KEFD

In my case yes ! Keeping the A/C at home in San Diego is a plus. If you live in a part of the Country where you can get hangar rent for around $200, then it might be a good deal to keep the A/C at the airport. Time wise, I don't see any real savings regarding getting the A/C ready for flight. You still have to drive to the airport ( I do with the A/C). The only difference is I have to unload from a trailer, which if I am in a hurry I can do in about 20 min. Being retired Iam not in that big of a hurry. There are many other advantages to keeping the A/C at home. Tools, no EPA, no County Officials breathing down your back, etc. Walking out of the house to the hangar/garage (about 30ft away) to work on the A/C w/o having to drive to the airport.

RB
NX115RX

I was hoping someone would chime in about CSA. Will Mike sell only the Folding wing kit. Last I heard, he would not sell just the prints. Only the entire kit and prints.

Also, RB, do you tie down the HS when you tow your S18? How fast will a Thorp go backwards?

Bob MO

Regarding CSA, I think it has always been the case that they will not sell just the S-18 plans.

No the HS is not tied down. I use the seat belt to lock the stick in the full aft position. I have 6 retractable tie downs attached to the trailer and (4) tie downs attach to (2) tie down rings on the center wing section. The wings sit in a "cradle" with supports and the wings are held secure by individual retractable straps. No need to remove ANY of the straps from the trailer. They are bolted to the frame. I have had the trailer on the Freeway at speeds 55mph+ The legal limit in California for towing a trailer is 55. It actually takes more time to "untie" the A/C and put the trailer ramps in place than it does to get the wings ready for flight.

RB

Rich,
I'm glad you mentioned this. I'd heard that the FAA's new "Through the Fence" regulations had made it much tougher to store a plane at home and regularly operate it from an airfield. As a practical matter, what have you had to do to make this all work? I wouldn't have any problem with supporting my local county airport with some type of nominal fee. Did you have to set up some type of arrangement with the field you're using?
I'd like to save $$ on hangar rental by storing my plane at home, but, as you mentioned, there are other advantages: Being able to do a little work on the plane whenever you want, probably lower chance of theft/damage, etc.
I'd probably want to use an enclosed trailer just to keep the wind load down during movement and to free up space in my garage. I can see that having access through the sides (not just the end) would be a big plus.
Also, I've heard of folks storing their airplanes on the airfield in standard shipping containers. The standard door width on these containers is 7' 4", which is exactly the same as the width listed on the T18.net comparison page for a folding wing T-18CW, so there might be need for minor mods to allow things to fit in easily. The T-18 would fit lengthwise (barely) in a 20' long "high cube" or "fat rack" container (internal length 19'5"), the less common 30' containers would provide lots of extra room for tools and supplies. These containers are very sturdy and used ones can be had for a good price. I've not approached my local airfields about this option.

Mark

First of all if you work for ICE, the TSA or US Customs I will plede the 5th to all my answers !

I'll give you the 2 airports I have operated out of in the San Diego area with the A/C on the trailer. The first airport was KSDM (Brown field). It is a POE airport right next to the Mexican border here in San Diego. I had to use Brown field as my designated airport to fly off my 40 test hours. The airport has absolutely NO "airport security" as far as bringing the aircraft onto the airport. I literally drove the car and trailer with the A/C onto the ramp. No fence, no gates, no guards. Being a border airport it does have Customs for arriving aircraft and occaionally there woulkd be a Border Patrol agent with a drug dog roaming the ramp/hanger area. Other than that, I could go anywhere on the airport unchallenged ! Go figure for an airport located less than 5 miles from Tijuana airport !

The airport I use now as a "base airport" is KSEE. It has a brand new transit ramp with a manual gate/combo lock on it. You can get the combo from a phone number listed on the gate. I drive up to the gate, open the gate and drive the car/trailer/AC onto the ramp. Off load and go fly. As it is a County airport I already pay County taxes to support it. I suppose if they wanted to charge me they probably could, but I would raise a HUGE stink as my taxes support the ramp ! >:(

RB

Rich, your right having the bird at home is most convienent, kitchen handy,coffee Ice Tea everything is right there. I do miss this a lot, I trailered my plane a lot to the airport and always enjoyed having it at home. When I hangered it I went through bad withdrawals not being able to go to the garage and piddle with it. I have intertained the Idea of bringing it home again because it's not really any trouble.Dan

Wings attached

RB

Dano: Every month I look in the check book and there seems to be more money ? That zero rent payment goes toward insurance, fuel, parts, TBO fund, flyin Hotels, Bail bond $$$ for my Cross country friends, etc. ! Don't you have a trailer ? All you need are cradles for the wings.

RB