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Ground loop / no injuries http://t18.net/thorpforum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6889 |
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Author: | Fred Pinan [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Ground loop / no injuries |
Dear Thorp Familly, I joined the THORP familly in August and after 30 hours of flight enjoying a beautifull T18,i learned this week end that you should always fly the Thorp until he's on the ramp.... To make a short explanation ,landing with 90 |
Author: | leewwalton [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Sorry to hear that Fred! Glad you're ok! As bad as this sounds if it's just and outer wing panel you may consider yourself lucky, most bend the gear on such occasions. Lee here's the wing removal sequence; 1.) remove outer panels - remove gap covers - disconnect aileron control at horn (3/8 wrench -3 bolt) - remove rear spar bolt (7/16 wrench -4 bolt) - remove main spar nuts (9/16 wrench -6 nut leave bolts in place) - have someone hold the wing at the tip and another if possible at the wing break as you pull the main spar bolts. - repeat on other sides 2.) Remove flaps - behind the seats find the flap control cables - this should be a -3 nut/bolt and a cotter pin or a nylock nut (need a pair of pliers to remove the cotter pin and a couple of 3/8 wrenches) - disconnect the flap return springs at the wing break. back off the the nut at the forward end of the return spring. - remove the flap hinge bolts (7/16 wrench -4 bolt) - repeat on other side 3.) remove center section - remove wing root fairings if installed. - remove lower center gap cover (if removable) - inside the aircraft disconnect the stab push-pull tube from the control assembly (7/16 wrench -4 bolt) - remove the nuts from the aft spar attach bolts (DO NOT REMOVE BOLTS YET) - remove the main attach nuts (forward of main spar looking aft from floor board area). - here's where it gets a little tricky; * with one person in the aircraft and two more outside the aircraft remove the aft spar bolts. Note! Once the aft spar bolts are removed no one is to stand on the wing again ... it will cause damage! * with two "helpers" supporting the wing at the outer attach fittings, use a rubber mallet and a taper or similar and drive out the main spar bolts. * at this point the wing is free to detach from the aircraft * lower the center section straight down and back (to clear the wheel pants if installed) AGAIN NOTE: Throughout the process be mindfull of any pitot static and or electrical connections that may need to be disconnected. |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Dear Lee , Thank you so much to have replied to me with such hi level of detail .This will be highly helpful. Somewhere i was not surprised when i saw you already did it . Even if i didn't participate so much for now in the forum , i 'm an intensive reader of it .I try to learn as much as i can about this beautiful bird . I know that 100% is my fault on this ground loop and i will learn from there for the future ... I'm still a big fan of this Tiger ![]() Thanks again and hope to see you in Oshkosh as the latest . Fred |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Dear Richard , Thank you very much to have taken the time to post this comment for me. I highly appreciate it .... I totally agree that i certainly didn't take the full back stick.... The gust moved the tail .I still have this feeling in mind -> not enough back stick , not enough pressure on the TW ... I think really this is what happens. You're totally right . One things i don't love to do with the Thorp is staying a long time on 2 wheels pushing more and more forward the stick as , as you said the Thorp as not a real rudder control when the speed is down. I prefer to come as soon as possible on 3 points and you're right sometime i was @ the limit of airborne the plane again . I would like really to find someone which can show me the perfect timing on this plane ... But for now , we need to repair it . We are on the way on Friday to take back the plane to Lake Norman and we will start to open the wing to see what's going on ... By the way Lee , Sorry again to bother you but instead of taking off completely the wing ; can we just do the "outer" wings and leave the central part in place ?? This will be enough to trail back the bird ..and if it's possible more simple to manage.. Both of you , than you very much again !! and if you're in NC , close to 14A , you're very welcome to stay @ home . I will keep you posted of what will happen next . I'de really like to make a couple of hours of instruction with someone which have a real experience on the Thorp as i'm sure i can learn a lot , i don't know if you have an idea for this ... Thank you again . Fred |
Author: | Rich Brazell [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
![]() ![]() ![]() RB |
Author: | leewwalton [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Fred, If you only have damage to the outer panel of course don't bother pulling the entire wing. On the landings, try dumping your flaps once you've touched down, that will plant the tail and put more weight on the tail gear. To the wheel vs 3point I say do what you're more comfortable with. The brakes are much more effective in the 2 point configuration but as has been mentioned getting the tail down pronto is the key. Once again, dumping the flaps in the 2point configuration quickly and effectively drops the tail and puts you where you need to be. Don't fret this for now, get your airplane fixed and get out there and practice, you'll do fine! |
Author: | leewwalton [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Fred, The airplane is not street legal with the center wing attached. No need to trailer the whole airplane home, just pull the outer panel, take it to the shop, repair it and reinstall. |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Rich Brazell wrote: O0 As a "Nugget" in my S-18, I find I MUST maintain a 100% on a swivel to keep the A/C on the pavement and center line ! ![]() ![]() RB Dear Rich , Thanks for your email but this happens @ the end of the landing sequence during the roll out of the runway , when ... you technically can't make anymore a go around . Best regards |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
RichardBentley wrote: Fred, There are two techniques for landing a tailwheel. A "wheels" landing and a "three point landing". Both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the conditions of landing. I find most people favor one or the other and/or are only proficient in only one. I strongly recommend proficiency in both. A wheels landing are fun, look cool and is actually the easiest of the two. Disadvantages are that they take up a lot of runway and you can be exposed to a gusting cross wind for a longer period of time. The best way to learn this one is to find a long runway and to simply fly very low along the runway reducing power till the wheels touch, then full power off, holding the plane level till the tailwheel falls to the deck then immediate full backstick. This sharpens your perspective at mastering this technique. Gradually you will be able to avoid eating up too much runway. We have a long runway 8000 for fun and out of boredom I have jockeyed power on after touchdown and held the tail up 4000-6000 feet of runway to avoid a long taxi using rudders to maintain directional control. FUN FUN FUN. Don't try this till you are very proficient (and relaxed) in wind technique, better yet only under very calm wind conditions. A three point landing might be considered safer because you slow down quicker and is best for a short field landings and cross winds. Inexperienced tailwheel guys usually favor this one. It is a bit trickier but not too much so. It will not work worth a S^%$ when you are heavy with aft most C.G. On this one the air speed must be much more controlled. Since the stall speeds vary a bit on a Thorp with different weights and especially flap settings, the more often you practice stalls at different flap settings the better you will be at this type of landing. You have to come in slower and fairly shallow. The steeper the approach the tougher. Enough airspeed to break a high rate of decent and ending up at the right airspeed for a three point is a fragile skill. You have to be very close to stall at touch down to do this one well. It is OK if the tail touches down first as long as you are not nose high. Roll out is very short. As always full backstick and power off upon landing. As I mentioned before and Bob Highley will confirm, two people, 80 pounds of luggage (I.E. Trip to Sun and Fun) 8 gallons of fuel or less---don't expect a good landing. It won't happen. You have to land faster than normal because you are at full aft C.G. and elevator control becomes an issue of concern. Not dangerous, just have to be more careful. All of this makes flying more fun. Rob Ray made an excellent point in Tiger Tails last issue. Practice, Practice, Practice makes good aviators and is less boring than "strait and level" or just boring holes in the air for an hour. Lastly and most important. DO NOT TAKE OFF WITH A 90 DEGREE LEFT cross wind in a taildragger unless you like scaring and endangering yourself. Put that wind on your right. Landings not so much. And remember: "There are three things you must know to land a tailwheel a/c well, unfortunately no one know what they are." Richard , Thank you very much again . I love your conclusion ... ![]() I didn't know about this issue of taking off with Left cross wind but i understand why... Best regards and do not hesitate to stop by if you're in the area . Fred |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
leewwalton wrote: Fred, If you only have damage to the outer panel of course don't bother pulling the entire wing. On the landings, try dumping your flaps once you've touched down, that will plant the tail and put more weight on the tail gear. To the wheel vs 3point I say do what you're more comfortable with. The brakes are much more effective in the 2 point configuration but as has been mentioned getting the tail down pronto is the key. Once again, dumping the flaps in the 2point configuration quickly and effectively drops the tail and puts you where you need to be. Don't fret this for now, get your airplane fixed and get out there and practice, you'll do fine! Thank you Lee for all (!). I will keep you posted . Fred |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
All , Thank you all of you for your messages . I really appreciate this and i will start again when the plane will be fixed and make a couple of hours with an instructor . It's important to learn from the mistake we do and i will !! for sure . My back stick will be 100% every time now .... See you all in OSHKOSH . Fred |
Author: | leewwalton [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Hmmm, I'd have to disagree with that, although "better safe than sorry" may apply if neither spar is damaged and we're looking at just bent sheet metal it's safe to say the attach is fine. For piece of mind pull the existing attach fitting off and have a DPI done on it. Richard, What accident are you refering too? I have not heard of any attach fittings failing since 1974 and that was the builders fault. |
Author: | leewwalton [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:34 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries | ||
Just occured to me that you're most likely refering to Carl Daughters accident ... either way Fred I think you're safe with a DPI (die penetrant inspection) ... but of course do what you are comfortable with, that's just an opinion. Just to clairify this is what the NTSB arrived at after a 3 year investigation of the Daughters accident. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows. the pilot's continuation of a visual flight rules (VFR) flight into an area of adverse weather, which resulted in an encounter with moderate to severe turbulence and in-flight breakup of the airplane.
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Author: | leewwalton [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
The NTSB report is attached to my posting above. I did not say "better safe than sorry" was a bad idea, just that a DPI is plenty piece of mind in this situation and that if the fitting passes there is no need to replace it. |
Author: | Fred Pinan [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ground loop / no injuries |
Waouh! ![]() I just find the time to come on the web side and I saw all your comments . Richard, yes for sure the damage will be recorded on the log book of the plane , 1st answer. Concerning the fact to change or not the full part , I mean , the plane is actually in the hands of a real expert. I will not describe all the job he did in his life on airplanes but he has done probably more than 5 P51 complete restoration and i knowmhe made a couple of Spitfire,etc.. More than that , this person is a real friend and I trust his opinion. I spoke with him about the first email Richard posted this afternoon and he said to me , the damage you have on the outer wings is nothing , there is no way the fixations has been damaged. He said to me he will open completly the wing and inspect it . But he's highly confident that nothing happened to this point . Richard , I don't want to put some oil on the fire but we have strictly no idea how the repair has been done on this airplane which crashed. We will check this point as best as we can and if their is any doubts , we will change it. In an other way, I thought about this idea just to buy a complete outer wing ready to paint , that will be done quickly ... And it will be so easy . But i don't think someone as one for sale ..... Do you ? If one of you as an idea on this point... I will appreciate your help . We will inspect the main gear on Saturday as well to be sure there is no crack what so ever ... Thank you again both of you ! Fred |
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